hydratrashmeme | Chatter post

Making my own post in case anyone wants to discuss with me an idea I've seen in a few of the recent wank threads.

In the interest of clarity, my sense of this meme has always been that it was a niche kink meme meant to serve primarily the interests of a few very niche fans who wanted a safe place (in the sense of a place to not be shouted down as filthy evil degenerates by most of the other people around) to primarily write and prompt stories about sexual violence, particularly very hardcore and extra filthy sexual violence. Filthy violent stories without the sexual violence element were allowed so long as they didn't overwhelm the core point of the meme.

In that sense, it doesn't make sense to argue that some of the most popular past prompts and fills have been nonsexual in nature. Just because they were popular doesn't mean they were the main point of the meme, and in fact could lead to a stronger argument for banning them. Popular ideas have a way of hijacking fandom and leaving fringe members with different interests kicking their heels feeling like they aren't really wanted.

The people who started the HTP and the person who took the time out of their life to create and moderate this group aren't, therefore, obligated to open up the niche they've built for themselves to accommodate other forms of horrific violence just because those things are popular when they do show up here. This is and always has been a place with a fairly narrow focus with zero obligation to widen it's boundaries just because a few things outside that focus also fall under the purview of too trashy for other memes. Especially when Trashmod is quite happy to make and post a list of other kinkmemes and add new memes that anyone else wants to make for their own niche interests.

This meme serves a specific purpose, and not wanting to see it dragged off course doesn't seem at all a negative thing. Creating a new meme with a broader dehumanizing violence scope seemed like a very nice solution to the recent influx of prompts derailing the central scope of this meme. Those who prefer the less sexual violence and dehumanization can head to the new meme, leaving this one a little cleaner and neater for people who prefer to read/write sexual violence in particular. Those like me who's interests fluctuate on any given day can look at either and have fewer prompts to wade through that don't fit that day's interests.

I agree with you in parts. I understand the problem was the amount of posts that were "off topic". The problem is, how does a newcomer know how much is too much? As it has been said many times throughout the discussion, the guidelines are interpreted different by people. The trashmod's view of dirtybadwrong must include a sexual element, many people's don't (including mine, I mean, if cannibalism and puke aren't dirtybadwrong I don't know what is).
I understand the trashmod's opinion is what counts, since it's their meme and all, but it gets confusing, like, are non sexual prompts allowed, but only a little? How much is a little? I've been here a while, so I know all the not noncon posts in a row were more than usual, but how does someone new know that?

AYART

The newcomers know how much is too much by the prompt freezes. Freezing so much in a row with stricter standards than usual may have been a harsh move, but trashmod followed it up with an explanation. "A little" is up to the mod's discretion, so you prompt nonsexual violence at your own risk, especially if there's already some nonsexual prompts recently preceding yours. I suspect with the creation of the new meme, that leaves room for stricter policing of this meme as well. Though of course I can only speak to my own opinions.

Mainly in my first post I was taking issue with the idea that older nonsexual violence posts should make nonsexual violence okay now simply because those were some of the most popular fills. If a newcomer has trouble interpreting what is meant by "dirtybadwrong" then they get a frozen prompt or two, figure it out, and either leave for the new meme or stick around for the sexy noncon once they get a clearer idea of what the meme is mainly for. If a lot of people leave who weren't the target audience of the meme in the first place, that doesn't really hurt the target audience, and in fact might be more beneficial than if they all stuck around continuing to pull the original meme off course. It's not being mean, it's just saying, "This sandbox was built for a very specific purpose we couldn't find easily elsewhere, so while you should be happy to write whatever you want to write about, that particular thing doesn't quite fit here and is starting to overwhelm the things that are supposed to be here."

I used newcomers as an example, but I'm not a newcomer and I was confused about it as well. A while ago there was a string of prompts that were clearly off topic: and they all got frozen. That is understandable. But I honestly wasn't aware there was a limit of too many not noncon prompts if they follow the dumpster requirements in other areas.

For me it was "not the general preference but okay" and not "somewhat of a problem that is tolerated"

Yep, that's just how I saw it.

My view of it was that it wasn't the mod's preference, but was okay so long as it didn't become the general preference and thus overwhelm the original point of the meme. The mod has always shown a willingness to link to other kink memes if it turns out this one doesn't have quite what you want. When the dehumanizing garbage but nonsexual whump wasn't reaching a level of needing it's own kink meme, then it was fine here. With the recent slew of such prompts, a new kink meme made a lot more sense than allowing it all to stay here, because it's become popular enough to shift the general preference, which isn't the point of this meme.

Y'all need to stop acting brand new like a bunch new people with really bad reading skills suddenly discovered this meme and decided that since they read the title as Hydra TEA party it now should accept TEA party fic. No. A lot of people who have been around since the start (myself included) posted prompts that were reasonably within the requirements (Hydra, CATWS, dirty trashy nasty stuff). No one wanted to change the meme to something that it's not (softcore) but rather demanded clearer rules on things that do have a basis for being here (non sexy hardcore)

DA

How do you know that the prompts were posted by a bunch of different people who had been here forever? LOL. I find it REALLY interesting that more than a dozen new prompts all in the very specific non-sexual body horror vein were all posted within the space of a day when for months there's maybe been one or two new prompts a day, if any at all. It was like a tsunami wave after the barest trickle. So yeah, it feels a lot more likely that a few newbies inundated the thread with the HTP-adjacent prompts rather than a bunch of old hat HTPers all got to jonesing for some straight-up body horror at exactly the same time. Just saying.

Regardless, it's clearly about the sudden volume of prompts with this theme and I'm not sure why that's so hard to understand.

Re: Popularity of an Idea =/= On Topic-ness of the Idea

(Anonymous) - 2018-06-08 10:22 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Popularity of an Idea =/= On Topic-ness of the Idea

(Anonymous) - 2018-06-08 17:58 (UTC) - Expand

It's all a question of who the meme meme wants to cater to-- I wish that both factions were equally welcome regardless of the volume of content from either or how popular that content was. But, like you, I think the new meme is a good solution, and helpful for those of us who want both traditional and less-traditional prompts/fills.

Also, thanks for wording this so considerately.

AYART

I am trying to keep my own posts at least considerate! There's been enough wank the last few days. If nothing else, at least I can hope not to add any more nastiness.

My point was that the meme should have no obligation to cater to certain themes based on popularity, or even on those themes having lacked a meme of their own before the new one went up. I've been in fandoms before where popular new ideas overwhelmed other things, and it can get very frustrating when you go looking for a particular flavor of fic and find it drowned in things you don't care for. It might not register much if the majority of themes are what you're looking for, to stumble occasionally over a rock in the path in the form of something out of place, even if it's a very popular rock. However, once the path becomes more rocks than path, everything that looks even remotely like a rock might get rather over efficiently cleared out. It might be annoying for the rock collectors, who were previously happily stopping to admire every rock on their way down the path, but it doesn't feel, to me, like the sort of move that warrants as much shock as I've been seeing.

With you on that front. Too many people took things too far.

Yeah, it's the "Slash Fiction is Like a Banquet" thing. When popular things overwhelm there's less variety, but the demand is clearly there, so where to strike the balance? Especially when both kinds of content have been there since the beginning.

Has anyone actually said they want a change to include whatever is popular, though? What we have been pointing out is that there are prompts and fills that have been allowed in the past that we'd like to keep, so it's confusing when the stance is suddenly changed. Especially when the change isn't reflected in updated rules/guidelines.

I did see a couple of people making statements along the lines of the meme will surely die! if it doesn't grow and change to accommodate what more people want these days. The flip side of that is that, if keeping the meme alive requires allowing the focus and majority of prompts to shift towards something Trashmod doesn't care for, are they obligated to keep the meme they created alive for the sake of other people's interest? My feeling was no, they aren't. If it's more important to Trashmod to keep the meme focused on sexual violence than to keep it alive, then that seems perfectly fair to me. Especially when Trashmod was perfectly happy to link to any other kinkmemes other people wanted to create to cater to other things.

Keeping the focus on sexual violence was clear to me from Trashmod's more recent posts. I can admit that just because I can't see how it was confusing doesn't mean it wasn't confusing for other people, but at some point continuing to grumble about it starts to seem a bit pointless.

From what I saw it was one person speculating there might be less activity, but neither of those are the same thing as "let's change meme".

I don't see why it's hard to understand that some are annoyed/confused/whatever at a part of meme they enjoyed not being allowed anymore.

You're right; either way, the new meme settles things (It's accepting prompts now and there's a fill up already, if anyone is interested).

That's what I hope!

I'd put down money that the meme's niche focus is why it's the only MCU kinkmeme that's lasted this long.

A couple of the more wankbaity anons in the other thread were claiming the HTP meme is ~dying~ and we need to ~broaden our horizons~ (presumably towards the fic they wish we'd write for them) if we're to have any hope of surviving. But if anything, it's the opposite. Our problem isn't not enough activity--we've got regular participants and a small but active core of fills. It's the relevant activity getting
swamped in dubiously-related prompts from people who don't know or care what we're here for. Who knows where they're coming in from, but "the demise of all the other Marvel kinkmemes" seems like a plausible starting guess.

The idea being, I suppose, that it's now our patriotic duty to lube up and let the wankbait anons turn this meme into Avengerkink-but-with-Bucky's-name-substituted-for-Tony's. More than that, it's the only way to keep our meme alive!

It worked so well for Avengerkink, after all.

This. Thank you anon. This is what I've been screaming about. Let anyone that doesn't like our HTP dirty and badwrong in sexual ways post in the other thread.

Keep us moving forward in our own slow slug crawl. The trash I want is right here.

NA: Ditto this. I'm gonna try to restrain myself from sniping at rude folks anymore and focus on filling a prompt instead.

My hero.

And the entire point for a lot of people was that you need to be clearer about what "dirty and badwrong" means since it's pretty subjective. I've been here for years and enjoyed fills that didn't include rape but were still seen as "dirty and badwrong" then, and things can be sexual without being full on rape.

We like the dirty and badwrong. That's why we're HERE. It's not just a bunch of new people that don't like non-con. We've been here all along, reading and enjoying the same fic. We just also happen to want things like sexualized torture, too, which we previously could get here.

Maybe this would be a lot easier if the comm stopped using juvenile terms like dirty badwrong and outright used "non-con and non-con only" in the rules if that's what it's gonna be about.

Re: Popularity of an Idea =/= On Topic-ness of the Idea

(Anonymous) - 2018-06-08 19:19 (UTC) - Expand

I get what you're saying, but most of the recent drama wasn't about trying to turn the meme into anything--it was hashing out what is or isn't on topic, which clearly both sides needed to see done. Anyway, the new meme is up and accepting prompts now, so hopefully things will settle.

It seemed like most of the people involved in the drama had earnest points to make about what they wanted out of the community, but there were a couple nasty pieces of work shitting all over the trashmeme and claiming they were trying to change it, but only for our own good.

If those anons had any constructive ideas whatsoever on what they did want out of a kinkmeme, they hid them well, so I'm just going to amuse myself by imagining that the actual content behind their trolling was "super butthurt that we aren't Avengerkink."

Re: Popularity of an Idea =/= On Topic-ness of the Idea

(Anonymous) - 2018-06-08 02:15 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Popularity of an Idea =/= On Topic-ness of the Idea

(Anonymous) - 2018-06-08 02:29 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Popularity of an Idea =/= On Topic-ness of the Idea

(Anonymous) - 2018-06-08 02:51 (UTC) - Expand

that's a really good way of putting it. personally, i've always been here for the sexual trash. there have maybe been the odd time when there was a prompt+fill that was more borderline that tickled my fancy, but largely i've always been here for the namesake premise (i.e. the hydra trash party). sure, there's been plenty of stuff that dealt with things like abundant gore and non-sexual medical experimentation and whatnot, but it never overwhelmed the thematic origin of the meme and often there were significant sexual abuse issues mixed in. so when i started catching up with the recent prompts and got to the problematic/frozen ones i was legit thinking to myself "omg what the actual heck is happening."

to be fair, maybe it's just because these kinks are not my kinks and i've never been the one to look for them in HTP, but i felt like the mod's crackdown was pretty understandable given the context. unfortunately things clearly got heated and wanky, which is a shame because it seems like this was a good and important discussion to have in theory (i.e. clearing up confusion about the rules), but it seems to keep devolving into a wankfest. i'm sorry if people who dig the extreme unsexy body horror stuff felt like they were being told there's absolutely no place for them here, but at the same time i'm honestly relieved about the mod pushback because i'd hate to see this place overtaken by so many rocks, to borrow the analogy. hopefully the new meme can provide a kickass space for everyone to get their gore on so between the two memes everyone's interests will be met. :)